Heat resistance testing for PSA slabs.

Hello all, and happy 4th of July!
So I posted a guide a few days ago about safe buying 101, if you missed it you can view it here. In that guide I talked mostly about burglary ratings and very briefly touched on fire ratings. My guide states that for most safes, you can expect a safe’s internal temperature to hit 350 degrees. That’s a cooking temperature for your standard dinner, so the question becomes will my PSA slabs hold up to that kind of heat? Well, I can think of one way to find out…
Setting up the lab.

So it may not be the most ideal laboratory set up, but it’s what I’m working with. For this test we’ll be using a Target exclusive $20 dollar toaster oven and a couple of brave PSA slabs willing to sacrifice themselves in the name of science. Lets go ahead and take a look at them now.

Slabs for science.

The slabs I’m using are in fact older. However the plastic used between the new and the old slabs is identical, meaning they will have the same melting point, which is what we are trying to figure out.

FIRST ROUND OF TESTING:
So the first round of testing involved placing a slab in the oven for 1 hour at 155 degrees. The reason I choose this time and temperature setting is for a few reasons. Most data safes (don’t worry I’ll be doing a guide on those as well) advertise protection for at least an hour and state that the internal temperature of their safes don’t go past 150 degrees. Adding five extra degrees to the oven extends us past that claim giving us a better margin for error. So lets get cooking…
RESULTS
So, what we can see in the picture is a whole lot of nothing, this is a good thing. After an hour of baking at 155 degrees I decided I would not allow the card to cool down like it would normally in a house fire. I removed the slab and looked for issues, defects, warping, discoloration, burn marks and anything else that might not make the slab as “pure” as it once was. I was very presently surprised to find that it had absolutely nothing wrong with it. It did feel pretty warm to the touch, but I could handle the slab without any real discomfort. So for the 150 degree test for an hour it was a huge PASS.
SECOND ROUND OF TESTING:
So if you’ve read up on fire ratings on UL TL-15 style safes, you’ll notice they give a maximum external temperature allowed on the safe. This number generally bounces between 1700 and 1850 degrees. However the internal maximum temperature always remains at a solid 350 allowable. Since 1850 is extreme compared to the flashpoint on a normal house fire (1100 degrees) I decided for test two I wanted to figure out a more likely internal temperature for a safe running at 1100 degrees. So if we take our maximum settings for both external and internal we get:
1850 : 350 = 5.28 ratio
So if we take a more likely maximum and apply a similar set of ratios we get something more like this:
1100 : 190 = 5.79
1100 : 200 = 5.5
1100 : 210 = 5.281100 : 220 = 5.00

* To be fair, my math skills are limited, I may not have those very rough equations down the way they should be written, but the ratios of degrees are correct.
I was a tad nervous jumping to a 210 degrees in part because I felt that it would be difficult to get my temperature reading to hit 210 exactly (Would kill for a digital read out on my exclusive toaster oven Target!) So I opted for a “cooler” temperature of 200, I could hit that right on the nose no problem.

After letting the oven and slab cool completely I set my temp, and the timer for 30 mins and off I went…
RESULTS

The picture above is what happened after five mins. I let the test continue for another five (total of ten). I removed the slab and noticed a heavy expanding effect within the slab and the card inside altered in such a way that it was not recoverable on a re-grade. The 200 degree test resulted in a rather resounding FAIL.
THIRD ROUND OF TESTING:
Final leg, lets see what happens once I let the oven cool and I throw one more slab inside at a full 350 degrees. Mind you, this is what a safe classified as UL TL-15 or TL-30 WITH added fire protection will max out at.

RESULTS AFTER THREE MINUTESRESULTS AFTER TEN MINUTES

Results speak for themselves really. Venasaur was not recoverable by any means. The 350 degree test ended as a FAIL.

CONCLUSION:
While UL TL-15 and 30 safes will likely remain a favorite among those concerned with burglary losses, the same crowd will be crushed to know the same line of safe protection won’t give them what they need in the event of fires. It’s a huge win for those with data and media safes, and a blow to those who maintain other classifications of safes who need fire protection.

It’s not the end of the world though, if anything testing and gaining feedback is a gift! This testing lets us know as collectors that we need to step up our protection plans for those worried about burglary AND fire protection. In the coming months I’ll be looking at containers that might function in a UL TL-15 or 30 safe as an extra security layer. As always I’ll let you guys know what I find so we can avoid serious misfortune.

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I applaud you for the willingness to sacrifice your PSA cards, and this is such valuable information for the community! I now know that I need to up my game in terms of safes!

Thank you so much for your efforts!

PS. Insert classic poor green guy meme right here

Eeek, the curl on that last one.

Thanks for another amazing guide, cant wait to find out what containers you recommend that might function in a UL TL-50 or 30 safe!!

For those of us a short swim away:

350℉= 176.6667℃
155℉= 68.33333℃
200℉= 93.33333℃

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I just saw and read through both of your guides @silversnorlax204 and I got to say you did a fantastic job on both. Love reading posts like these.

On a side note for Data Safes, do they come in different classifications? What I mean is are they identified by one of the classes c, b, tl-15 safes? Or do they have their own classification and different levels of protection based on price point?

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I’m really glad the guides are a helpful tool for everyone!
As for data safes, I will be doing a separate guide on those after a little more research (mostly calls to manufactures for specifications). However what I can tell you is that these safes GENERALLY don’t have a burglary classification to them and likely have not been tested. At the very least they will have a “B” rating however that’s not very high. They are in fact in their own little category as data safes are not very common these days.

For the short term I would advise calling and getting clarification before making a purchase. Just be aware of general BS statements “This safe is tough as nails! It’s going to stop a thief easily!” is a bad sales pitch at best. Ask for facts, ask for ratings if they have them, ask for any independent testing done (UL) and of course ask for pictures and specs (such as size and weight) as any manufacture with decent quality service should send those to you. Be informed in your decision making, knowledge is critical in this application.

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Will keep that in mind thank you! Side note you are silversnorlax204 on YouTube as well? I ask because I watched alot of your videos if so, when I first got into the hobby. Very good videos if so :blush: should make more.

Ah, my YouTube days…

Yes! I’m the same guy that spoke softly into a camera with no editing whatsoever! I actually would like to revive my channel (as I have not done an upload in over half a year now, yikes!). But I’ll see what happens in the future here, I’m happy writing articles at my leisure, but YT may not be too far off in the future…

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Wow this was seriously fascinating! Well done!

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Awesome work! Thank you for sharing your findings

Awesome. I feel quite good knowing that they can withstand 150 degree heat

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Amazing work! Thanks so much for this it is great information for everyone to take into consideration.

A slab easily surviving 150 degrees isn’t surprising as the interior temperature of a car easily can reach 130+ in the summer heat. I am sure PSA took that into consideration during their design.

I’m not sure exactly what type of plastic PSA uses for its slabs but I wonder now what its exact max temp is and also at what temperature a raw card itself would hold up to? All we know from this is somewhere from 150-200 and honestly the cards appear fine except for the damage the twisting melting plastic did to them. Perhaps in a few weeks if you don’t feel like doing that test I can take it upon myself to do them. It would be an interesting addition to the work you did here. I do have an old toaster oven kicking around my basement somewhere and a high temp oven thermometer I could use to verify it’s readings.

I’m also working on some research into the exact robustness of my nested safes method. As I’ve mentioned several times I have a small 30 minute safe inside a large 30 minute safe and I don’t know what the exact effect of that would be though I know it would be well under 350 degrees inside my inner safe after 60 minutes in a fire. But would it be less than the crucial ~150 degree mark? I am unsure but hopefully can figure that out.

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Are you able to test cards in soft sleeves in toploaders?

Raw card temps would be difficult to determine as there are quality differences between US and Japanese cards, card stock quality is very different between the two for sure. We could run more tests at the 150 degree range to see what would happen, the question I think at that point would be how much time would need to elapse before we saw defect occur.

If you want to attempt an EXACT melting point test, by all means be my guest, I probably won’t continue finding an exact melting point as I know 150 is a safe spot to be at, and is reasonable to find adequate protection for slabs.

I would love to see results from a nested safe method. If we continue to look at the ratios I posted 350 : X = 5.28 then you should see an increase of no more than 70ish degrees with that method, however that’s only a theory as there is no way to ascertain the amount of heat transfer that actually happens between safes. Speaking completely theoretically the nested safe method should work, you’ll still be at the 150 mark if the starting point of safe two (nested) is under 80 degrees.

I can, but I’m not so sure if that would be something that would be very beneficial to the community. PSA slabs should get priority standing as that’s where most of the high value cards are.

Great guide!

I have mentioned it before on e4 that a fireproof safe is only enough if it has a media protection certification. That‘s why the safe I bought 3 months ago does have a 1 hour fire rating for digital media.
Really interesting to see real facts though thanks to your testing!

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but what you would need for < 150 F guarantee would be a film protection certification. Unless you are speaking of a data media certification then you are good down to 125 F / 52 C.

Digital media protection only certifies to 248 F or 120 C which as we have seen has devastating effects to PSA graded cards.

www.safelincs.co.uk/a-guide-to-types-and-ratings-for-fireproof-safes/

@silversnorlax204 some day down the line I will bring out the toaster oven and camera and bump this thread.

Yes indeed the certification is for a heat of max 248 or 120 C only… but the test for my safe‘s certification is carried out with heat of 1000 degrees Celsius. As was mentioned earlier the average house fire is at around 1100 F which is only around 600 degrees C. So I am assuming my cards should be safe… I hope at least lol :grin:

@pokeg just do as I plan to do in that event. Once everyone is out safe and the fire trucks arrive point them in the direction of your safe. A steady water blast should keep the temps down. Tell them eff the house it’s insured haha.

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