What if Pokemon was a Modern Sports Product?

[whiterabbit]

My buddies and I were talking about collecting sports cards and the realitive strength and health of the hobby. They both laugh at my dabbling into Pokemon cards. I’m mainly a sports guy. It got me thinking what if Pokemon cards were printed like sports cards. I believe it be much better off for collectors. It’s the main reason why the early set is so valuable with 4 variations of one set much like sports cards today. Imagine if the only set was the unlimited base set the value from a collectors point would be close to nil. What are your thoughts?

[gott006]

pokemon is first and foremost a game for kids to play. collecting is secondary although still part of the design re having chase cards in each set. also sports card collecting to me seems a very american cemtric thing whereas pokemon is truly an international hobby.

[budget]

If 1st and Shadowless base didn’t exist unlimited would be worth more, not less.

The only real comparison I think that can be made would be between FOTL and regular hobby variants of modern sports card product. Pokemon Base set’s print runs aren’t variations in the strictest sense.

The rarity of base set wasn’t artificially created the way modern sports card sets are designed.

[pfm]

I don’t necessarily agree with the premise that having expensive cards = good for collectors.
But moving past that, I also don’t necessarily agree that the difference in sports has to do with variants.
Michael Jordan Rookie card - 2630 PSA 9s, 302 PSA 10sThese are like ~$5000 and $20,000 cards.
Unlimited Charizard - 3823 PSA 9s, 384 PSA 10s
If Unlimited was the only option then one of two things would happen:-it would be a ~$20,000 card with that population and your argument is invalid-it would be significantly less than ~$20,000 in which case, the difference between sports and Pokemon has more to do with factors other than how many variants a card has (ie. salary between a 20 year old pokemon collector and a 50 year old sports collector)

[whiterabbit]

I am aware that it is a card game but the majority of the kids that I know who collect are not players themselves. Also, many of these kids 10-15 expect these cards to rise in value. These kids are collecting American Pokemon cards in a “junk wax era” The print runs are unreal right now.At some point there will be an awakening and there will be a greater focus on the collector.

[whiterabbit]

@budget

If 1st and Shadowless base didn’t exist unlimited would be worth more, not less.

The only real comparison I think that can be made would be between FOTL and regular hobby variants of modern sports card product. Pokemon Base set’s print runs aren’t variations in the strictest sense.

The rarity of base set wasn’t artificially created the way modern sports card sets are designed.

I would argue that as an aggregate sum the value would be less. Would the value of recent sets be more if there were 4 variants of a particular set? One could argue if the variations were organic or not, but there’s no doubt that each variation has it’s own distinct value. I guess I’m just a little frustrated as a collector right now because there is no chase right now without buying via the secondary market. I guess I could always move to Japan where there’s a healthy focus on collectors and players.

[smpratte]

@whiterabbit,Nice topic!

I think adding a textured shiny low pull rate for at least the holo cards would be fun. Something similar to the GS pull rate. That would add a layer for everyone; collectors would love the chase, players would like the variance.

@pkmnflyingmaster, Hit it on the head if 1st Ed or Shadowless didn’t exist. I am glad they do, but unlimited Zard would be identical to Michael Jordan. In a lot of ways it already is, but the added rarity of 1st Ed is why the PSA 10 Zard is more valuable + being 13 years younger.

[budget]

@whiterabbit

I am aware that it is a card game but the majority of the kids that I know who collect are not players themselves. Also, many of these kids 10-15 expect these cards to rise in value. These kids are collecting American Pokemon cards in a “junk wax era” The print runs are unreal right now.At some point there will be an awakening and there will be a greater focus on the collector.

I doubt that’s going to happen tbh.

The ethos of Pokemon tcg is that everything is accessible because the target demographic for product released outside Japan is children and teenagers.

Why would they change anything when the product already sells amazingly?

You can hunt staff promos if you want that added layer of exclusivity.

[omahanime]

When complete sets are impossible, I think people get discouraged and quit collecting.

[whiterabbit]

@budget

@whiterabbit

I am aware that it is a card game but the majority of the kids that I know who collect are not players themselves. Also, many of these kids 10-15 expect these cards to rise in value. These kids are collecting American Pokemon cards in a “junk wax era” The print runs are unreal right now.At some point there will be an awakening and there will be a greater focus on the collector.

I doubt that’s going to happen tbh.

The ethos of Pokemon tcg is that everything is accessible because the target demographic for product released outside Japan is children and teenagers.

Why would they change anything when the product already sells amazingly?

You can hunt staff promos if you want that added layer of exclusivity.

I understand that I’m collecting a kids game and I’m not suggesting Pokemon change their ethos. It is true that the product is selling well but 1990 fleer sold well too. I work as an slp for a large school district and I get to interact with many kids. I would say the majority of the kids are not interested in the game, but they collect the cards. If I had a dollar for every secret rare these kids show me with the expectation that it’s going to be extremely valuable 20 years from now I’d be able to retire. I completely understand where these kids are coming from. I was that kid with my Donruss Canseco rookie. The sad truth is that there’s no such thing as a secret rare anymore. But, imagine this hobby if there was.

[mrmilk]

@whiterabbit

I am aware that it is a card game but the majority of the kids that I know who collect are not players themselves. Also, many of these kids 10-15 expect these cards to rise in value. These kids are collecting American Pokemon cards in a “junk wax era” The print runs are unreal right now.At some point there will be an awakening and there will be a greater focus on the collector.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems as though that is already starting to happen. Ultra Prism and on seem to have more concise releases after businesses got screwed with crimson invasion. They are by no means uncommon, but they seem to be slightly more controlled.

[whiterabbit]

@omahanime

When complete sets are impossible, I think people get discouraged and quit collecting.

I think the collector just changes their focus. I know as a sports collector there is no possible way I could ever collect a set. Therefore, I just change my collecting goals and it’s still a rewarding challenge.

[budget]

@whiterabbit

@budget

I doubt that’s going to happen tbh.

The ethos of Pokemon tcg is that everything is accessible because the target demographic for product released outside Japan is children and teenagers.

Why would they change anything when the product already sells amazingly?

You can hunt staff promos if you want that added layer of exclusivity.

I understand that I’m collecting a kids game and I’m not suggesting Pokemon change their ethos. It is true that the product is selling well but 1990 fleer sold well too. I work as an slp for a large school district and I get to interact with many kids. I would say the majority of the kids are not interested in the game, but they collect the cards. If I had a dollar for every secret rare these kids show me with the expectation that it’s going to be extremely valuable 20 years from now I’d be able to retire. I completely understand where these kids are coming from. I was that kid with my Donruss Canseco rookie. The sad truth is that there’s no such thing as a secret rare anymore. But, imagine this hobby if there was.

blame maxmoefoe and unlistedleaf

A lot of it is kids trying to emulate youtubers in their 20s who make it all about money.

[mrmilk]

@budget

@whiterabbit

I understand that I’m collecting a kids game and I’m not suggesting Pokemon change their ethos. It is true that the product is selling well but 1990 fleer sold well too. I work as an slp for a large school district and I get to interact with many kids. I would say the majority of the kids are not interested in the game, but they collect the cards. If I had a dollar for every secret rare these kids show me with the expectation that it’s going to be extremely valuable 20 years from now I’d be able to retire. I completely understand where these kids are coming from. I was that kid with my Donruss Canseco rookie. The sad truth is that there’s no such thing as a secret rare anymore. But, imagine this hobby if there was.

blame maxmoefoe and unlistedleaf

A lot of it is kids trying to emulate youtubers in their 20s who make it all about money.

I wouldn’t throw maxmoefoe into the same category as unlistedleaf. Although neither would be categorized as “mature”, max is really funny and doesn’t cram false information down your throat. It is more about his entertaining commentary.

[pfm]

I dont understand why there’s a need for modern product to be valuable though?

Pokemon cards are some of the most diverse collectables I can think of. You could take 10 random collectors on the forum and they could all be collecting entirely different things. If you’re interested in highly desirable recognizable cards you can choose to collect PSA 10 WOTC stuff. Want the same thing but slightly cheaper? Buy lower grades or put together a binder. At the highest end you have trophies and very limited Japanese promos. If that’s too rich for your blood there are extremely limited English stamped promos or Japanese prize cards that won’t break the bank. Or if you’re a kid and you want to open a pack of cards, get your mom to buy you a pack of Crimson Invasion from Walmart. If you want to get something modern with value, theres a ton of modern Japanese promos and products that have seen excellent growth.

My point is that anyone can find an entry point or collection niche in Pokemon. Not everything needs to be valuable one day. I’d say the low barrier to the modern chase cards is actually a positive thing. It supports this tiered level of collection. It gets kids excited. They don’t care about real scarcity, they are concerned with perceived value. Although hyper rares may be objectively common, if you are a kid who gets a pack a week they will still be perceived as super rare.

There’s a reason why kids today love Pokemon cards and have little to absolutely zero interest in sports cards (based on my observations/experience)

[whiterabbit]

@pfm

I dont understand why there’s a need for modern product to be valuable though?

Pokemon cards are some of the most diverse collectables I can think of. You could take 10 random collectors on the forum and they could all be collecting entirely different things. If you’re interested in highly desirable recognizable cards you can choose to collect PSA 10 WOTC stuff. Want the same thing but slightly cheaper? Buy lower grades or put together a binder. At the highest end you have trophies and very limited Japanese promos. If that’s too rich for your blood there are extremely limited English stamped promos or Japanese prize cards that won’t break the bank. Or if you’re a kid and you want to open a pack of cards, get your mom to buy you a pack of Crimson Invasion from Walmart. If you want to get something modern with value, theres a ton of modern Japanese promos and products that have seen excellent growth.

My point is that anyone can find an entry point or collection niche in Pokemon. Not everything needs to be valuable one day. I’d say the low barrier to the modern chase cards is actually a positive thing. It supports this tiered level of collection. It gets kids excited. They don’t care about real scarcity, they are concerned with perceived value. Although hyper rares may be objectively common, if you are a kid who gets a pack a week they will still be perceived as super rare.

There’s a reason why kids today love Pokemon cards and have little to absolutely zero interest in sports cards (based on my observations/experience)

Dont get me wrong, I enjoy collecting the older rarer cards. I just wish there was an incentive for people like myself to purchase newer product.

[fazool]

I entirely agree with PFM. I would add that I also very much care that there is a game that exists with it. I really love both Pokemon and Magic, and I don’t think I would like or spend as much money in either one if there wasn’t something that I enjoyed behind it. If anything the game aspect would add a lot more value to older cards if they somehow became playable, not the other way around.

[pfm]

@whiterabbit

@pfm

I dont understand why there’s a need for modern product to be valuable though?

Pokemon cards are some of the most diverse collectables I can think of. You could take 10 random collectors on the forum and they could all be collecting entirely different things. If you’re interested in highly desirable recognizable cards you can choose to collect PSA 10 WOTC stuff. Want the same thing but slightly cheaper? Buy lower grades or put together a binder. At the highest end you have trophies and very limited Japanese promos. If that’s too rich for your blood there are extremely limited English stamped promos or Japanese prize cards that won’t break the bank. Or if you’re a kid and you want to open a pack of cards, get your mom to buy you a pack of Crimson Invasion from Walmart. If you want to get something modern with value, theres a ton of modern Japanese promos and products that have seen excellent growth.

My point is that anyone can find an entry point or collection niche in Pokemon. Not everything needs to be valuable one day. I’d say the low barrier to the modern chase cards is actually a positive thing. It supports this tiered level of collection. It gets kids excited. They don’t care about real scarcity, they are concerned with perceived value. Although hyper rares may be objectively common, if you are a kid who gets a pack a week they will still be perceived as super rare.

There’s a reason why kids today love Pokemon cards and have little to absolutely zero interest in sports cards (based on my observations/experience)

Dont get me wrong, I enjoy collecting the older rarer cards. I just wish there was an incentive for people like myself to purchase newer product.

I understand the frustration from the perspective of a serious collector. I’d recommend looking into the Japanese side some more if you want more excitement from modern.

[budget]

@mrmilk

@budget

blame maxmoefoe and unlistedleaf

A lot of it is kids trying to emulate youtubers in their 20s who make it all about money.

I wouldn’t throw maxmoefoe into the same category as unlistedleaf. Although neither would be categorized as “mature”, max is really funny and doesn’t cram false information down your throat. It is more about his entertaining commentary.

Max puts a price next to every $2 card he pulls from mandarake raffle cubes. Inadvertently that’s making it about money.

When Leonheart meets up with Gary to do 5 figure deals it’s made about money.

You could lump in instagram rafflers showing expensive cards making it about money or facebook sale posts wanting $40 for a PSA 10 zigzagoon, etc.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with this but the “blame” for kids acting this way starts with the Pokemon related content they consume.

[whiterabbit]

@budget

@mrmilk

I wouldn’t throw maxmoefoe into the same category as unlistedleaf. Although neither would be categorized as “mature”, max is really funny and doesn’t cram false information down your throat. It is more about his entertaining commentary.

Max puts a price next to every $2 card he pulls from mandarake raffle cubes. Inadvertently that’s making it about money.

When Leonheart meets up with Gary to do 5 figure deals it’s made about money.

You could lump in instagram rafflers showing expensive cards making it about money or facebook sale posts wanting $40 for a PSA 10 zigzagoon, etc.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with this but the “blame” for kids acting this way starts with the Pokemon related content they consume.

Yes, and I feel for them. The reality is the value that they have placed on their cards is hyper inflated. I just checked out unlisted leaf. Jesus, I could only stomach a few minutes, but I saw him place dollar amounts on just about every rare card he pulled.